Not impressed with the hands up BS displayed by the Rams WRs

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Ram_Rally said:
I'm an African American who agreed with the Zimmerman verdict and the non indictment of Darren Wilson, but I can not agree with you on eric garner. He was not being belligerent. I've seen many people stand their ground when believing that they had no reason to be arrested, and they weren't choked to death for it. The man is clearly heard saying "I can't breathe!" And one officer applied even more force afterwards. It was ruled a homicide by two different coroners and the hold was banned for a reason. This is NOT a race issue (although this divide between "white racists" and "black thugs" over these cases saddens me beyond words). This is an excessive force issue with some cops thinking that a badge puts them above the people that they have sworn to protect.
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I have to agree with you! Beyond the fact that the choke hold was applied, that type of force is unwarranted for the misdemeanor offense he was being arrested for! No wonder blacks have issues with the man if that's the response they get to petty occurrences! Resisting is dumb but isn't a ticket appropriate for the offense?
 
jrry32 said:
Excessive force really isn't BS for Brown. He was unarmed and the officer shot him when he could have retreated safely or used non-lethal force. He killed a man.
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Being unarmed is irelevent to self-defense. If shooting brown wasn't stopping his attack, how would non-lethal force?

Wilson WAS retreating. The fatal shot didn't happen until Brown was about 8' away.
 
jrry32 said:
Yea, that doesn't work for me. Like any ordinary citizen, police officers have to abide by the law. And there are restrictions on the force they can use...just like there are restrictions on the force a citizen can use in self-defense.

I don't care if the guy was belligerent, I don't care if the guy broke the law...he didn't deserve to die. The police officer deserves to be indicted for the CRIME he committed. Any ordinary citizen would be indicted if they tried to make a citizen's arrest in that manner. What he did was not legal, not ethical, and not acceptable.

Like it or not, Garner was an American and is protected by the laws those officers are sworn to uphold. That officer broke the law.

Excessive force really isn't BS for Brown. He was unarmed and the officer shot him when he could have retreated safely or used non-lethal force. He killed a man.

Both of these incidents were examples of excessive force and abuse of power. Those men don't have to be martyrs to be wrongly killed. The police should be held accountable but it's clear these prosecutors don't care about doing that. Criminals are still American citizens and don't deserve to be killed by overzealous police officers using excessive force.

You can choose to justify and dismiss these deaths because they were criminals but I happen to believe criminals are people and I'm not going to accept the killing of people without proper justification. Ferguson is a more iffy issue than New York...where it seems blatantly obvious that was an abuse of power.
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Yeah you act like your opinion is fact, it is not it is only your opinion.

Mike Brown was a big man who was a criminal and made a really bad choice to attack a police officer. Wilson used his God given right to protect himself from this attack. Don't want none don't start none.

Garner put himself in harms way. Did he break the law, I don't know. It appears he resisted arrest. Did the smaller police officer choke him down, it looks that way to me. That just makes them both wrong. Did he die from being choked or fat and unhealthy, probably both.
 
RamzFanz said:
Being unarmed is irelevent to self-defense. If shooting brown wasn't stopping his attack, how would non-lethal force?

Wilson WAS retreating. The fatal shot didn't happen until Brown was about 8' away.
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Wilson was retreating? Wilson was not retreating. He had a vehicle. He made no attempt to retreat. He attempted to pursue Brown.

Being unarmed is absolutely not irrelevant to self-defense when you're using deadly force. How would mace stop a guy charging you? I think we know how it would.
 
rhinobean said:
I have to agree with you! Beyond the fact that the choke hold was applied, that type of force is unwarranted for the misdemeanor offense he was being arrested for! No wonder blacks have issues with the man if that's the response they get to petty occurrences! Resisting is dumb but isn't a ticket appropriate for the offense?
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It's a slippery slope because African Americans will also criticize a cop for doing the right thing. But this is one of the few cases where America got to see it with their own eyes and yet we still remain blind to the issue. (Once again I take more issue with the failure to indict than I do eric garners skin color or the altercation itself)
 
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blackbart said:
Yeah you act like your opinion is fact, it is not it is only your opinion.

Mike Brown was a big man who was a criminal and made a really bad choice to attack a police officer. Wilson used his God given right to protect himself from this attack. Don't want none don't start none.

Garner put himself in harms way. Did he break the law, I don't know. It appears he resisted arrest. Did the smaller police officer choke him down, it looks that way to me. That just makes them both wrong. Did he die from being choked or fat and unhealthy, probably both.
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That's not a God given right. That's a right given to you by the statutory law. And there are limitations to that right especially when using deadly force.

No, it doesn't make them both wrong. It makes the police officer wrong because Garner is dead. Stop using their criminality as a justification for killing them. You're rarely arrested without having done something illegal. You're basically justifying excessive force in any arrest because they did something illegal. That's nuts.

He died due to being choked while having a medical condition. Read the coroner's report. And yes, having a medical condition does not shield the officer from liability. It's called the eggshell victim rule.

That officer should have been charged with negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter...maybe even reckless manslaughter.

I act like I don't condone police officers killing people without justification.
 
RamFan503 said:
He was originally being questioned about a fight he had been involved in. From all accounts I have read, he was only involved in that he was breaking up the fight. He apparently did this several times before and was known for stopping violence in his neighborhood. Then it got onto whether he was back to selling untaxed cigarettes - which he denied. Supposedly the cops wanted to strap his hands while they questioned him. WTF? Who wouldn't tell them not to touch him? The only thing I saw him do in the video was try to pull his hands away from the cops that were grabbing at him.

Look - I agree that there is too much want by some within special interest groups to divide and segregate. But this was not one of those cases. I don't know if the cop did it because Garner was black. I only know that the cop at MINIMUM committed man slaughter and should at MINIMUM be prosecuted to determine if he should pay for his crime. Go ahead and get in a normal fight and choke someone to death. You think you are not going to get tried? A bouncer or security guard chokes someone out. Is he going to go without trial?

No indictment to sort out the facts? Really? It almost is like someone wanted rioting in the streets.
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I honestly don't know the facts, was not there, have only seen the cell phone video and read (mostly here) other accounts.

There seems to be no justification for someone dying there also seems to be extenuating circumstances.

Thinking someone would be attempting to causes widespread rioting? hmmmm Who could possibly want that?
 
jrry32 said:
That's not a God given right. That's a right given to you by the statutory law. And there are limitations to that right especially when using deadly force.

No, it doesn't make them both wrong. It makes the police officer wrong because Garner is dead. Stop using their criminality as a justification for killing them. You're rarely arrested without having done something illegal. You're basically justifying excessive force in any arrest because they did something illegal. That's nuts.

He died due to being choked while having a medical condition. Read the coroner's report. And yes, having a medical condition does not shield the officer from liability. It's called the eggshell victim rule.

That officer should have been charged with negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter...maybe even reckless manslaughter.

I act like I don't condone police officers killing people without justification.
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No, I will disagree with you on who gives you the right to protect yourself. The government does not give us anything. We the People tell the government (or at least that is how it is supposed to work) what our rights are.
 
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blackbart said:
hinking someone would be attempting to causes widespread rioting? hmmmm Who could possibly want that?
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Let's not go there on a Rams site - eh? And I would encourage others to stay away from this vein as well. I'm sure there are many sites anyone can find to debate that idea. I apologize for even bringing up the notion.
 
jrry32 said:
Wilson was retreating? Wilson was not retreating. He had a vehicle. He made no attempt to retreat. He attempted to pursue Brown.

Being unarmed is absolutely not irrelevant to self-defense when you're using deadly force. How would mace stop a guy charging you? I think we know how it would.
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We know no such thing you can easily find hundreds of instances where mace and even tazing did not stop someone in their tracks.
 
blackbart said:
No, I will disagree with you on who gives you the right to protect yourself. The government does not give us anything. We the People tell the government (or at least that is how it is supposed to work) what our rights are.
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No, you don't. The people elect the legislature, the legislature creates statutes, and the statutes tell you what your rights are. Your right to self-defense is not God given and you don't have a right to self-defense in every instance. There are limitations. For example, if you are the initial aggressor, you have no right to self-defense. For example, if you provoke a fight and then injure the other guy while fighting him, you can't claim self-defense for the battery charge.
 
jrry32 said:
No, you don't. The people elect the legislature, the legislature creates statutes, and the statutes tell you what your rights are. Your right to self-defense is not God given and you don't have a right to self-defense in every instance. There are limitations. For example, if you are the initial aggressor, you have no right to self-defense. For example, if you provoke a fight and then injure the other guy while fighting him, you can't claim self-defense for the battery charge.
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Again only your opinion Jerry we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
blackbart said:
We know no such thing you can easily find hundreds of instances where mace and even tazing did not stop someone in their tracks.
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It doesn't have to stop him in his tracks. You hit someone with mace in their face, they're not going to have the same ability to attack you.

But that's getting away from the point. If this man was so threatening and Wilson was so worried about his safety, why did he get out of the vehicle and pursue him? Could he not have called for backup? Could he not have remained in his vehicle, called for backup, and pursued in his vehicle from a safe distance?

He got out of the car to pursue an unarmed man and then shot him when the man charged him. No, I don't think that's okay. There are so many things he could have done to avoid killing this young man. And there are major limitations on the use of deadly force.

The guy was lucky that the DA didn't want to pursue charges. And yes, I am saying that they did not want to pursue charges. They didn't have the balls to drop the charges so they purposefully botched the case in front of the grand jury so the grand jury would take the decision not to prosecute off their shoulders.
 
jrry32 said:
That's not my opinion. That's the law.
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You may want to revisit that in your studies. Even an idiot twit who starts a fight is entitled to self defense if the other person begins to get the better of him or pulls out a stick or the court finds out he has training. He is not going to get away with murder - though they may determine it man slaughter - but he can use the defense and it has worked to get off more minor charges.

Anyway, 'm done with this thread. It seems we are just hashing and rehashing. If you guys want to keep going on it, just be civil. I have already asked the other mods if they think it is just time to let this thread end.

Cheers and Go RAMS!!!
 
Ram_Rally said:
It's a slippery slope because African Americans will also criticize a cop for doing the right thing. But this is one of the few cases where America got to see it with their own eyes and yet we still remain blind to the issue. (Once again I take more issue with the failure to indict than I do eric garners skin color or the altercation itself)
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Agree on the indictment! At the least, manslaughter! Not for playing the "race card" in any case, even if it seems the case! That is what you hear far too often! Just a shame these things still happen!
 
The only problem I have with the Garner case is the video is edited. It doesn't show what happened between Garner pleading his case and when the Police arrested him. Is there an unedited video anywhere?
 
Ram_Rally said:
I'm an African American who agreed with the Zimmerman verdict and the non indictment of Darren Wilson, but I can not agree with you on eric garner. He was not being belligerent. I've seen many people stand their ground when believing that they had no reason to be arrested, and they weren't choked to death for it. The man is clearly heard saying "I can't breathe!" And one officer applied even more force afterwards. It was ruled a homicide by two different coroners and the hold was banned for a reason. This is NOT a race issue (although this divide between "white racists" and "black thugs" over these cases saddens me beyond words). This is an excessive force issue with some cops thinking that a badge puts them above the people that they have sworn to protect.
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The choke hold ALONE should be reason to bring that fuck to trial, people die from that and the police in NYC know that is why they aren't allowed to use it.

I'm still outraged hours after seeing the video and I'm going to say that if the guy was white I don't think the cops keep the pressure on, regardless of how big he was. He was subdued, the struggle was over and the cop kept going, he didn't let go. The obvious question is why did he go on? Because he didn't like the guy..........because he was resistant, maybe committing a crime and black. But that shouldn't be a fucking death sentence.

I could be wrong, and I don't know what is in this cops head and heart. But he and two other guys had a guy on the ground, under control and who was clearly struggling to breathe and they didn't do what they should have done. If that was me I have no doubt they would have let up or at least dialed down the pressure on my neck

Eric Garner was murdered and I'm stunned that the officer isn't being brought up on charges. I am flabbergasted that any decent and civil person could see it any other way.

I can't get the image of him on the stretcher out of my minds eye.
 
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