Not impressed with the hands up BS displayed by the Rams WRs

[Stranger]

“How about those Rams? They may be under contract to play football, but greater than that, they have a right to care about humanity,” Carlos told Dave Zirin of The Nation. “They have the right to feel whether something is just or unjust. They are entitled to their opinions, most centrally that Michael Brown’s life should not have been taken. Asking them to just ‘shut up and play’ is like asking a human being to be paint on the wall. They have the right to say what they feel in their heart.

“A lot more athletes need to step up and speak up as well. These atrocities have been going on and we are saying enough is enough. I remember saying in 1968, you think I’m bad, just wait until this new generation comes out. I feel like that new generation is here at last.”

Yup, it's time.

Thanks very much for posting, @Prime Time

 

[Stranger]

You are hoping that what they said back in August is true. Read what they said under oath and compare it to the forensics. There are no credible witnesses that Brown surrendered, that he was shot while on his knees, that he was shot on the ground, or that he was shot from behind. Zero.

I don't know which witness is which because they are secret, but one female admitted she wasn't even there. Johnson suddenly remembered that Wilson was yelling stop and get down repeatedly and that he never heard Brown say don't shoot. Several witnesses confirm Wilson's story and, even more importantly, they all align with forensic evidence the witnesses knew nothing about.

The forensics indicate Brown was shot from the front?

 

[ramsince62]

i took it as a peaceful protest

Then let them do it outside the stadium...

 

[six2stack]

The black experience in America is not the same as the white experience.

Are you suggesting blacks should be treated differently than whites? I'm intrigued by this statement.

 

[RamzFanz]

The forensics indicate Brown was shot from the front?

Yes, the forensics show he was shot from the front several times. What they don't show is that he was shot from the back. There was only one inconclusive graze.

The forensics are imperfect as all forensics are. There are no forensics that don't support Wilson. There are no forensics that don't support the witnesses that state Brown charged at Wilson. All of the forensics support that Brown was charging and Wilson was back peddling. All of the forensics support that Brown attacked Wilson, went for his gun, was shot in the hand in the car, ran, turned, an charged while Wilson yelled over and over for him to stop and get down.

I was on the fence before the evidence came out and it's not impossible that Brown was innocent, but it's so unlikely as to be near impossible.

Those witnesses you linked to? One admitted to lying and not being there. One, Johnson, told a wild and unbelievable story that is proven false by the forensics. Several of them contradict each other on what happened.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Are you suggesting blacks should be treated differently than whites? I'm intrigued by this statement.

I think he's saying that they already are.

 

[ramsince62]

Are you suggesting blacks should be treated differently than whites? I'm intrigued by this statement.

Me too, I always thought that the "American Experience" was/is what you make of it.

 

[Stranger]

Yes, the forensics show he was shot from the front several times. What they don't show is that he was shot from the back. There was only one inconclusive graze.

The forensics are imperfect as all forensics are. There are no forensics that don't support Wilson. There are no forensics that don't support the witnesses that state Brown charged at Wilson. All of the forensics support that Brown was charging and Wilson was back peddling. All of the forensics support that Brown attacked Wilson, went for his gun, was shot in the hand in the car, ran, turned, an charged while Wilson yelled over and over for him to stop and get down.

I was on the fence before the evidence came out and it's not impossible that Brown was innocent, but it's so unlikely as to be near impossible.

Those witnesses you linked to? One admitted to lying and not being there. One, Johnson, told a wild and unbelievable story that is proven false by the forensics. Several of them contradict each other on what happened.

thanks.

 

[Stranger]

Me too, I always thought that the "American Experience" was/is what you make of it.

That's a fallacy that we're taught to believe.

 

[HometownBoy]

Are you suggesting blacks should be treated differently than whites? I'm intrigued by this statement.

I'm thinking he's suggesting blacks should start being treated the same. They've already have been treated differently for quite some time. I assume we all know how.

 

[LetsGoRams]

Yeah, he attacked a police officer... that's the story, and everyone is sticking with it. No wonder there are protests going on all over the nation.

http://on.msnbc.com/11WMfHa

thanks.

I knew what happened the day after the shooting. I have a good friend who is on the STL county police department and they knew it was a 'clean shoot' from the beginning. This kid, (Dorian Johnson) - the same thug who helped him rob the store and the same one that was walking in the middle of the street, and who also disrespected Officer Wilson, flat out LIED to America when he said that 'Big Mike' aka the Gentle Giant (who was known to brandish guns, flash gang signs, had a juvie rap sheet) that he had his hands up running away and was shot in the back. Lie after lie after lie, proven by witnesses and forensic evidence. Whether you want to believe it or not - too bad. Those are the facts. Johnson, along with other so-called witnesses have been proven to be 'coached' to tell the same story by the new black panther party among other activist groups. It's well known around here. Johnson, by the way, changed his tune to the grand jury when threatened with perjury. Several other witnesses did as well. Some admitted to not even seeing what happened, but just want their friends told them. AT LEAST 8 African Americans witnessed it and have corroborated the officer's story. Some re-telling it EXACTLY as the officer detailed it in his report. So please, let's get a grip and stop wanting some narrative to have happened that just didn't.

 

[Boffo97]

For those convinced that the forensics are false and the Grand Jury's decision in this matter is a lie, I must ask... what would the authorities in Ferguson gain from such a thing? Is the implication here that they just hate black people so much, they'd start a huge conspiracy in order to let a murderous cop go free?

I get that sometimes people do evil things. Believe me, I get that. But when it crosses that line into having a villainous party or parties not just be evil, but pointlessly and stupidly so, I have to think that's more wishful thinking for the sake of a good conspiracy theory than anything connected to reality.

There are larger issues society needs to drag into the open... but attaching them to a criminal like Mike Brown who caused his own death will do more harm than good to the cause.

 

[cracengl]

I have to disagree about the labeling of facts. But hey, I'm a trained journalist (who hates the field and is transitioning to something else btw) and am steeped in cynicism.......You have stories and pee pee poor investigation imo.

But imo, nothing is really going to change unless patrol cars are equipped with cameras that not only show what is happening inside the vehicle but outside as well at all times. There's really no justifiable reason for that not to happen. Even more so, having all cameras turned on prior to confrontations of any sort.

That doesn't happen.....and I find it odd that dashboard cams (in this instance) doesn't appear to have been on, though I don't know if typical cop cars are. If they aren't, that's a black eye on police. If they aren't on at all times, even blacker black eye.

In general, dash cams run as long as the vehicle is running. Sometimes, they continue to run until they lose power or are turned off, but that's a setting that can be changed. (This is all based on the equipment my particular department uses). They have a hard drive in them that is continuously recording and a dvd recorder that burns incidents (or perhaps a large flash drive). Basically, an event is anything that the car triggers, such as activation of lights or sirens, or the officer pushing the in-use button on his/her body pack (the portable microphone). The Ferguson incident may not have triggered anything with the camera system, but knowing that the hard drive is still recording, there are ways to go in there and pull stuff off of it regardless. Now, if the camera system was just completely shut down, that's another story.

My two cents: whether they went about calling attention to the subject in the wrong way or not, there is still the debate over whether this sort of thing happens too often. Officers and police officials will point to state supreme court rulings and other data that suggest to them how to apply force and how it can be justified. But, just because it is justified in the eyes of the law doesn't make it right in real life. On the other hand, you also run the risk of getting officers injured or killed by asking them go through lengthy checklists of what is appropriate force when in real time you don't have that sort of time to make a decision--sometimes you just have to act. In my opinion, the overarching problem here is the dynamic some police forces have installed in their communities. They apparently are not holding their officers to the highest standards in terms of interaction with the public, nor are they doing enough to reach the public in ways that can be beneficial in diffusing some of the attitudes that lead to hatred of the police. There are some people who you can reach out to a billion different ways who are going to hate police regardless--and that's okay. However, it is easy to become jaded by that element of people and to start classifying them all by the worst examples you see on a daily basis. I think there is some underlying resentment between the citizens and the force that too often is left to fester and is being under-discussed. Does that justify Michael Brown in his actions? Of course not. It's just frustrating to me to see the extremes of opinions here on one side or another. There should be legitimate problems that need fixing, but not enough people choose to see that within the overall debate. It's either, jail the officer/murderer or "hey, look at the thugs disregarding the "facts" of this case." If we exclude the fringe element of people who take advantage of the excuse to riot and burn things, we should be able to identify that the root causes of this protest are in many cases significant and justified. The solutions to these problems, offered by some, may not be the best or most practical, but that doesn't mean there are not problems. I think to myself how I tend to act over time when I feel like I'm not being respected or treated fairly. Eventually, even I, start to take on the attitude of "fuck you, I'll do what I want."

 

[Warner4Prez]

For those convinced that the forensics are false and the Grand Jury's decision in this matter is a lie, I must ask... what would the authorities in Ferguson gain from such a thing? Is the implication here that they just hate black people so much, they'd start a huge conspiracy in order to let a murderous cop go free?

I don't know that I'd consider anything a grand conspiracy by any means, but the trend of high profile cases of cops killing unarmed and defenseless citizens has gained a sharp uptick over the last five years or so. More often than not, these cops walk free or at least face reduced charges.
Regardless of the circumstance, I'd imagine it's a hard pill to swallow in most every community.
I can't explain the increased coverage of the Brown case vs. those in cities that have seen tragedies like Detroit (7 year old girl shot during a raid), Atlanta (Flash grenade thrown into a crib), New Iberia LA (mysterious handcuffed suicide), Oakland CA (Shot in the back while cuffed), but I can imagine that such cases have contributed to the collective outrage.

 

[Boffo97]

I don't know that I'd consider anything a grand conspiracy by any means, but the trend of high profile cases of cops killing unarmed and defenseless citizens has gained a sharp uptick over the last five years or so. More often than not, these cops walk free or at least face reduced charges.
Regardless of the circumstance, I'd imagine it's a hard pill to swallow in most every community.
I can't explain the increased coverage of the Brown case vs. those in cities that have seen tragedies like Detroit (7 year old girl shot during a raid), Atlanta (Flash grenade thrown into a crib), New Iberia LA (mysterious handcuffed suicide), Oakland CA (Shot in the back while cuffed), but I can imagine that such cases have contributed to the collective outrage.

The thing is though that we'd need to look at what happened in those cases and get both sides of the story. If officers acted inappropriately, by all means punish them.

THIS case, everything is pointing to Brown bringing his own death upon himself and Officer Wilson acting entirely appropriately, yet still having his life ruined.

 

[LazyWinker]

I'm used to being surrounded by people with differing opinions because I work at a college. It's easy for me not to take other people's opinions either way. It doesn't bother me that those five came out with their hands up. The thing that ticks me off is that they are getting attention for this and not the effort they put forth in getting a win for St. Louis. The city of St. Louis needed a win and they delivered!!!!

I'm used to people having opinions and it doesn't bother me that they have them.

 

[blackbart]

Yeah, he attacked a police officer... that's the story, and everyone is sticking with it. No wonder there are protests going on all over the nation.

http://on.msnbc.com/11WMfHa

None of the investigations have come up with anything to refute that. However there has been evidence to show there was a struggle inside the car. But if you think it is all just made up to support their position and that the real evidence was given by the accomplice to the robbery you have already made up your mind.

 

[RAMBUSH]

The rams receivers acted like the niners in my opinion. Never acceptable.

 

[Prime Time]

Are you suggesting blacks should be treated differently than whites? I'm intrigued by this statement.

Not at all. They should be treated the same as everyone else. In a perfect world everyone is treated the same and given the same opportunities. The laws of the land mandate this to be so. In reality however this is not so for some.

 

[Thordaddy]

Mort is reporting that neither the NFL nor the Rams will be fining the players involved.

And so the Jeanie is out of the bottle and you can expect that there will be more and all because the NFL and Rams are taking a cowards way out.
I don't tune into NFL games to see nor hear people use that forum to advance adversarial agendas of any kind , I wouldn't agree with them using symbolism that started arguments within the fan base of any kind, Breast Cancer ? sure , none of us would object, buy if this thread and the way people are approaching it doesn't PROVE that it was divisive then someone is too vested in their POV .

It was not the time nor place and FWIW the buzz I got from winning that game yesterday was terribly short lived because this happened , as fans of the Rams we should be united today about what a wondrous thing that game was , instead LOOK AT US .
Suppose I pay for a ticket to the Thursday Night AZ game bring a sign and unfurl it when the cameras are on the crowd that says "Mike Brown was a criminal and didn't have his hands up" on national TV ? RIGHT BEHIND THE RAMS BENCH, think they will protect my "right" to respond ? I have my doubts. I expect I wouldn't get in the dome if they knew I had it, does anyone here believe there aren't people among the fan base incensed enough to do that ? Let me be clear ,I don't intend nor want to do that , BUT IT IS the can of worms this opens, some have objected to the use of the word "stupid" I'll say it's ill advised.
AND BTW I supported and still support the Olympic sprinters gesture , the fact that what they were protesting was real and not based in testimony that had been refuted by witnesses sworn under penalty of perjury and by a great deal of forensic evidence . I get that people don't trust the process but the process is what we have and I support the people who question it TO question it but to do it among people who are vested in nothing more than emotion itself which is what fandom is courts this sort of response


As X says it harms the Rams more than it helps the players cause and that isn't what they are being paid to do and especially when all the guy has to do to prevent it from coming into "his living room" is change the channel .
These guys put their coach in a terrible position, a no win situation, just when it looks like they might be turning a corner .