6ft High and Rising? A Tale of Two QBs

[Loyal]

I have to agree with Legatron here. With the way Keenum is playing I would rather we stuck with Keenum and kept the picks. If we were going to let our QB sit for a year we could have taken Lynch (or used the tradw up next year after our roster is set) and spent the other picks beefing up the line (again) or drafting pass catchers that could actually push Quick off the roster. Our OLINE still needs upgrading, which is concerning. Gurley should be at the top of the league, but we can't seem to get any push.

We had the extra 2nd rounder this year. Fisher must have seen enough in Goff to think he was the guy, and if we had waited, till next year, it would have been too far away from the #1 spot to make the trade in my opinion. Fisher took his shot, and so we will have to see what happens...

 

[jrry32]

I remember when people tried to do this with Austin Davis. It turned out that Austin Davis simply wasn't a good QB.

Guys, let's be rational. You're basically hoping for a one-in-a-million outcome. It's like believing that some random QB we sign can be the next Kurt Warner. Or that some 6th round QB we drafted can be the next Tom Brady.

Is it possible? Sure. But reality is that you're looking at a 0.00000000000000000001% chance that it happens. You're basically asking for a miracle.

 

[jrry32]

Love the positive outlook, however I must point out that Brees played 17 games thru 2 seasons where Keenum was in his 5th season before he hit game 17.
By Brees 5th season he was already the all world QB we know today

Yea, this is the sort of statement that typically ends a thread. It's a pretty disingenuous comparison.

 

[-X-]

Yea, this is the sort of statement that typically ends a thread. It's a pretty disingenuous comparison.

I don't see why. If anything, it would illustrate why Brees' stats would be better. Brees didn't have to go through three head coaches and four offensive coordinators in 4 years as a quarterback in this league. Was it Keenum's fault that he wasn't named the starter despite the fact that his production was lateral to the guys ahead of him in all that spot duty? The way I see it, it's only disingenuous because it gives Brees the edge due to the stability of his situation at the time. You'd think his stats would be significantly better because of it. But they weren't.

 

[Athos]

Never thought I'd see rationalization of Keenum comparisons to Bree's again. Yesh.

Outside of height there's absolutely nothing to compare. You can make stats say anything you want.

Outside of a second year where he only played 11 games, Brees has been one of the most accurate passers in the league.

And he's got some of the best feet in the pocket as well as some of the best anticipation and pocket awareness in the league.

Keenum has none of those attributes.

Grasping at straws.

 

[-X-]

Never thought I'd see rationalization of Keenum comparisons to Bree's again. Yesh.

Outside of height there's absolutely nothing to compare. You can make stats say anything you want.

Outside of a second year where he only played 11 games, Brees has been one of the most accurate passers in the league.

And he's got some of the best feet in the pocket as well as some of the best anticipation and pocket awareness in the league.

Keenum has none of those attributes.

Grasping at straws.

Except nobody compared their talents. Only how they started their careers.
And I can make stats say only what they say, since I offered no commentary on how they were achieved.

People need to stop doing this stuff. It would be like if I said Brady threw an incompletion very similar to the one Keenum threw last week to Austin. The most anticipated response I would get would be, "Oh, so you're saying Keenum is Brady now?????!?!?!?!" Relax, people. And learn context.

 

[rdlkgliders]

@-X- I hope you are safely tucked away. stay out of the crosshairs.

 

[badnews]

How so many of you failed to actually read my post without putting a spin on it is depressing.
I don't think Keenum is just like Brees, will ever be close as a passer... etc.
I made all that clear.

Their comparisons are many and go beyond size. The biggest difference, and its a big one, is arm talent.

The point I was trying to make was that similar guys with similar size, backgrounds and similar limitations put up similar numbers over their first 20 games.
The only "hopeful" or "optimistic outlook" was that hey, here's a hall of fame and he got better and better.
Maybe Keenum can still manage to improve after 20 Games.
Maybe his ceiling has a little more headroom than what we've seen so far.
That's it.
So many are so quick to just skim and decide if what your reading fits your own belief about whatever the topic...

 

[-X-]

Maybe Keenum can still manage to improve after 20 Games.
Maybe his ceiling has a little more headroom than what we've seen so far.

I think he still has some modest improvement left in the tank. I don't think we've seen his ceiling in terms of how he'd perform with complete comfort in a system and complete trust in his receivers and line. I've seen flashes of what he can be in the right circumstances while he was in Houston, and while he's been here. Anyone saying he's peaked is just wanting that to be the case so that there can be some justification for putting in Goff. There's very little objectivity left, IMO, as it relates to this situation. Nobody cares that he's had 3 head coaches and (now) 5 offensive coordinators while Brees had Marty Schottenheimer and Cam Cameron in those first 19 starts. It's "disingenuous" to mention it.

That's funny.

I don't think he can be Brees, though, and I don't think you were saying he could be anyway. And there was nothing wrong with drawing comparisons to the start of their careers. What bothers me is when things like that are summarily discounted because a future legend is involved in the conversation. Hey, Rodgers and Keenum have the same hair color, ya know. WHAT??? You're saying Keenum is as good as Rodgers!?!?!? lol. It's all good though. Thanks for bringing something to the table that we can discuss. And good lookin' out by trying to find a sliver of good in Keenum being the starter. That's what I'm drawn to when it comes to fanaticism.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Like so many great QBs, Brees needed time. He didn't enter the league as the badass HOF lock we know now.
He had to learn to play in a pro style offense and he had to continue to learn how to not let his height hold him back from being successful at the next level.
There is no question that Brees has always had a superior arm.

hmmm...I remember quite a few QB's in their college days....Brees at Purdue was one of them....I always liked the way he threw the ball and moved around....Brees career i San Diego was going pretty good. I remember his terrible shoulder injury. I am positive it made him the player he is today, as he took over a serious workout regimen...several of his workouts are on youtube. He is a very intensely trained individual. He's ripped...He's a great leader...I was ssurprised to hear his voice b4 games, with the war/army type chants...

I see none of these attributes in Case Keenum....He's basically handed the starting job in 2015...and appears to have improved NONE since last season.

To me, a player that goes beyond the call to transform his physical body, especially when they have obvious limitations...shows great discipline...and focus...and commitment...These are truly huge individuals on the field...It would be beyond wise to prepare oneself to absorb punishment, make quick moves, work on throwing mechanics every offseason, ala-Tom Brady/Drew Brees...it looks like Keenum's been out to the lake with the wife and kids...he's firey...but some of his misses...some of his throws...don't show half that life. Floats the ball all over the field...

I've seen many "short" QB's....the only one's with real limitations are the ones with popgun arms...Brees, Moon, Steve Young, hell Doug Flutie....they could throw....Pat Haden could throw...a little...Look at Tyrod Taylor this weekend...

Brees didn't have to go through three head coaches and four offensive coordinators in 4 years as a quarterback in this league

Perhaps, just maybe, his win-loss percentages had something to do with all the changes...just maybe -X-....

 

[-X-]

Perhaps, just maybe, his win-loss percentages had something to do with all the changes...just maybe -X-....

I don't think so. That Houston team was spent from top to bottom the year *he* went 0-8. Kubiak lost that team and they had mountains of problems. He followed that up by being the only QB on that 2014 team to have a winning record, despite being brought in on 6 days notice from the Rams practice squad to start a game. His story isn't dissimilar to what Kurt Warner went through early in his career. Bounced from team after team before middling around on the Rams behind Tony Banks, and THEN they got him a real offensive coordinator with real offensive weapons. I don't think I have to put the disclaimer in that Keenum is no Kurt Warner, but I'll do it anyway. Keenum is no Kurt Warner.

Honestly, if people can't see that his development has been atrocious, then I don't know what to say anymore. Sure he's not the best QB in the world, and he'll probably be destined to be a #2 in this league until he retires, but far too many people are selling him short simply because he doesn't look the part or hit on 100% of his throws. I'll take the endorsement of a guy like Bill O'Brien when he says things like this: "(Something) about Case that's impressed me is huddle command - his knowledge, intelligence and his command at the line of scrimmage," O'Brien said Monday. "For him to be able to come in (six days before the game), function in the huddle, function at the line of scrimmage and then execute the play, having not been here (since Aug. 31), it says a hell of a lot about the guy."

 

[jrry32]

How so many of you failed to actually read my post without putting a spin on it is depressing.
I don't think Keenum is just like Brees, will ever be close as a passer... etc.
I made all that clear.

Their comparisons are many and go beyond size. The biggest difference, and its a big one, is arm talent.

The point I was trying to make was that similar guys with similar size, backgrounds and similar limitations put up similar numbers over their first 20 games.
The only "hopeful" or "optimistic outlook" was that hey, here's a hall of fame and he got better and better.
Maybe Keenum can still manage to improve after 20 Games.
Maybe his ceiling has a little more headroom than what we've seen so far.
That's it.
So many are so quick to just skim and decide if what your reading fits your own belief about whatever the topic...

Their first 20 games didn't happen over the same period of time. It's not a 1-for-1 comparison.

I don't see why. If anything, it would illustrate why Brees' stats would be better. Brees didn't have to go through three head coaches and four offensive coordinators in 4 years as a quarterback in this league. Was it Keenum's fault that he wasn't named the starter despite the fact that his production was lateral to the guys ahead of him in all that spot duty? The way I see it, it's only disingenuous because it gives Brees the edge due to the stability of his situation at the time. You'd think his stats would be significantly better because of it. But they weren't.

X, these are some serious mental gymnastics. If anything, Brees's youth would illustrate why their stats were similar. Keenum is in his 5th year in the NFL. Brees was a Pro Bowl QB and was coming off a year where he put up 104.8 passer rating in his 5th year.

It's disingenuous because it ignores the differences in experience. It's like trying to compare a guy starting his first 16 games as a 4th year pro to a guy starting his first 16 games as a rookie.

 

[-X-]

X, these are some serious mental gymnastics.

You're a mental gymnast. :neener:

It's disingenuous because it ignores the differences in experience. It's like trying to compare a guy starting his first 16 games as a 4th year pro to a guy starting his first 16 games as a rookie.

(I was saving that one for you)

 

[-X-]

It's disingenuous because it ignores the differences in experience. It's like trying to compare a guy starting his first 16 games as a 4th year pro to a guy starting his first 16 games as a rookie.

But seriously...

It's not disingenuous (we can stop using that word now), because Keenum's experience was scattershot. It was experience gained in 2 systems with two head coaches, and the latter amount of his games came as a result of him being released, on someone else's practice squad, and then back to the original team with 6 days preparation. If you don't think that this works in favor of Brees, who didn't even start unti his second year, and then started under Marty and Cam, then you're just not being objective.

And you dress weird.

 

[jrry32]

But seriously...

It's not disingenuous (we can stop using that word now), because Keenum's experience was scattershot. It was experience gained in 2 systems with two head coaches, and the latter amount of his games came as a result of him being released, on someone else's practice squad, and then back to the original team with 6 days preparation. If you don't think that this works in favor of Brees, who didn't even start unti his second year, and then started under Marty and Cam, then you're just not being objective.

And you dress weird.

X, I think that works far less in favor of Brees than age and experience does in favor of Keenum. Case is at an age and point in his career where QBs typically hit their prime. Brees wasn't. It makes a big difference. It's like comparing Aaron Rodgers's first 16 starts to Peyton Manning's. It's just not going to tell you anything.

 

[jrry32]

You're a mental gymnast. :neener:

(I was saving that one for you)

This will be my new official gif.

 

[-X-]

X, I think that works far less in favor of Brees than age and experience does in favor of Keenum. Case is at an age and point in his career where QBs typically hit their prime. Brees wasn't. It makes a big difference. It's like comparing Aaron Rodgers's first 16 starts to Peyton Manning's. It's just not going to tell you anything.

We're just looking at it differently is all. I'm more focused on how both QBs were developed. Brees had far more stability and development than Keenum over the course of their first 20 games, and Brees pretty much sat his first year just like Keenum. How their careers went after that first year is worth noting. And I definitely don't think it's disingenuous (dishonest, deceitful) to compare their first 20 games because of it. If you think age and experience gives Keenum an edge, even though both didn't start their first year, and Keenum went through 3 head coaches and 5 coordinators (through no fault of his own), then that's what you think. I just don't see it the same.

Let's put it this way. Would you want Goff to experience the same course in his development? 2 teams, 3 Head Coaches, 5 Coordinators going into year 5?
And do you think another QB who stayed with the same staff the whole time, and took 3 years to get the same # of games would have the edge ... or not?

 

[jrry32]

We're just looking at it differently is all. I'm more focused on how both QBs were developed. Brees had far more stability and development than Keenum over the course of their first 20 games, and Brees pretty much sat his first year just like Keenum. How their careers went after that first year is worth noting. And I definitely don't think it's disingenuous (dishonest, deceitful) to compare their first 20 games because of it. If you think age and experience gives Keenum an edge, even though both didn't start their first year, and Keenum went through 3 head coaches and 5 coordinators (through no fault of his own), then that's what you think. I just don't see it the same.

Let's put it this way. Would you want Goff to experience the same course in his development? 2 teams, 3 Head Coaches, 5 Coordinators going into year 5?
And do you think another QB who stayed with the same staff the whole time, and took 3 years to get the same # of games would have the edge ... or not?

If Goff doesn't have 20 starts by the start of his 5th year, he's a bust.

But I'd much rather compare Goff's numbers in Year 4 and Year 5 to another QB's numbers in Year 2 and Year 3.

There isn't a comparison here. And this argument that Keenum is going to get better because of his relatively low number of starts was the same argument made for Austin Davis. It wasn't a good one then, it's not a good one now.

 

[Athos]

X, I think that works far less in favor of Brees than age and experience does in favor of Keenum. Case is at an age and point in his career where QBs typically hit their prime. Brees wasn't. It makes a big difference. It's like comparing Aaron Rodgers's first 16 starts to Peyton Manning's. It's just not going to tell you anything.

And this is what makes this entire conversation pointless and ridiculous.

OP tried to draw parallels that don't really exist in comparing how Brees started and Keenum started to draw some magical connection that maybe Keenum will get better because Brees is a short dude too who become all-pro.

Nonsense. Brees got better because everything else caught up to his talent level (ie. Getting over shoulder injury, etc).

He got better because talent level dictated that he would get better.

By year 4. Everything else is history.

Keenum is a journey man JAG for four years who went undrafted and was pushed out the door once already by this team. Brees was drafted in the second round.

Keenum wasn't given a "chance" because his talent level or lack thereof has never dictated it before.

 

[-X-]

If Goff doesn't have 20 starts by the start of his 5th year, he's a bust.

But I'd much rather compare Goff's numbers in Year 4 and Year 5 to another QB's numbers in Year 2 and Year 3.

There isn't a comparison here. And this argument that Keenum is going to get better because of his relatively low number of starts was the same argument made for Austin Davis. It wasn't a good one then, it's not a good one now.

That's not what I asked you, and you know this.
It was simple. Would you want his development to go that way? Yes or no?
And if another QB in year 3 had basically the same numbers, who do you think would have the edge?

Meh. Don't even answer it. You haven't yet, and you don't plan to.
It doesn't matter anyway. Keenum will eventually be replaced, so it's all moot.
Disagree that he can't get better. He's already gotten better every week, and he's shown that he can have great games too.
But again ... all moot. And orders of magnitude better than Austin Davis too. I would hope you could at least recognize that.