Peter King: MMQB - 12/1/14

[ChrisW]

And the BIGGER issue is that black and brown kids are killed without regard. Just 4 miles from where Michael Brown was killed, a young man stole 2 sodas. He was very upset about something. St. Louis County officers rolled up opened their doors, drew their weapons and stayed behind cover. They man was shouting. He took a few steps at the officers and they opened up on him. At least 12 shots. Within 23 seconds of rolling up on a situation and without any ability to ascertain or determine what was going on, the unarmed man was dead. I can post the link in the other thing if anyone is interested.

I watched this happen. I remember asking why they killed him. The guy stole the two sodas, and the police were called reporting that he had a lethal weapon. So he charged the cops and they shot him. Suicide by cop is the term that should be used here.

 

[Alan]

blue4 with this:
I don't see how anyone outside of the investigation can claim that they knew all the facts.

You're totally right about that. If you find someone on this board who claims they do you should chastise them for that.

ChrisW seeing things clearly:
Alan, I see you use the term murder. And I don't think that's a mistake on your part. You seem to think that Wilson should be found guilty of killing Michael Brown.

Yes I did. Yes it wasn't by accident. Yes I do. Perfect trifecta!

This is the Rams and NFL forum and while I am talking about things that should be discussed elsewhere too, I was merely replying to another posters comment. While I've also served on a courts-martial and served on 2 civilian juries, I'm still not going to get involved in a long conversation about this. I will say this as my last word on this. I'm privy to the essentials in both the official coroners report and the separate privately done autopsy that was done on Mr. Brown and the circumstances involved with both. I've seen the graphs demonstrating where the bullets entered the body and the explanations for each bullet hole. Have you? I'll read your response to this but when I hear you say that you believe that it seems to "corroborate Mr. Wilson's story" I immediately realize that you are not aware of all the facts and by a"all the facts" I mean to the degree with which I know them. If you didn't follow this story from the beginning (at least multiple hours every day for the first few days and weeks after the story broke) you are so far behind the learning curve it would not be possible to have a fruitful conversation about this. Not because you aren't just as smart as I am but because we cannot critique a book together that only one of has has read completely.

Stranger getting into the conspiracy:
Tell me more...

No I'm not gonna encourage you bro. You enjoy this stuff too much.

 

[Mackeyser]

And that's the problem, Chris. They saw an agitated black young man and INSTANTLY had their guns drawn. Look at the timeframe. 23 SECONDS from pull up to...dead.

Officers need to be trained better.

And we need to ask better questions on 911. Even properly trained, well-intentioned cops can be put in really crappy situations with crappy intel. The black man in the WalMart buying a toy shouldn't necessitate a SWAT rollout when WalMart has enough cameras to make the NSA get happy in the pants. A PHONE CALL to the manager of the WalMart could have answered the question of whether the man in question was dangerous. If any doubt, proceed, but CLEARLY he wasn't. Problem was... NO ONE EVEN THOUGHT TO QUESTION that a black man was an inherent and imminent threat and very dangerous. C'mon....

But...23 seconds. You got two guys there. Do they not teach non-lethal techniques? Are they so weak that two guys can't put one smaller guy in restraints? Were they afraid to fight?

Whatever happened to "Don't taze me, bro?" Should black and brown kids start wearing shirts saying, "PLEASE! Taze me!"

There are some guys who will successfully commit suicide by cop and that's a whole different kind of tragedy for everyone involved. The cop included! There are plenty of conscientious officers who never want to discharge their weapons and work hard in their communities. However, when the road to that end is slicked up with that easy racial prejudice of "draw first" and non-lethal means are considered less and less as well as Police having a precedent for not having a special duty to protect citizens (Warren v. District of Columbia), we have a LOT of police that feel very comfortable just shooting and going home at the end of the day and REFUSE to be put at risk.

There are plenty of ways to be a good cop. Unfortunately, we just aren't seeing that as much as we should in minority/inner city neighborhoods for a variety of reasons. Some nefarious, some not.

I don't care if Michael Brown is the ideal "flash point" for this social change. Just like Rodney King wasn't the ideal person for the last one. As long as we can begin to not only talk about moving things forward but actually doing things to move things forward so that we can in reality just treat every other human being as a human being, then it really doesn't matter who was the catalyst. I'm sorry anyone had to be the catalyst. I'm sorry it took many, many deaths and a particular death to wake even some of the world from it's somnolence.

We're all human beings and deserved to be treated as such. At minimum...

 

[Prime Time]

This is the Rams and NFL forum and while I am talking about things that should be discussed elsewhere too

Right you are. See you all over at Off Topic.

 

[Alan]

Sorry about that PT.

 

[Prime Time]

Sorry about that PT.

Nothing to be sorry about. You made an astute point. Turn that frown into a

 

[Alan]

Yes sir!
I took a double dose of medicine cause at my age I should know better. Although that goes against my creed of never learning from my past mistakes. :eek:

 

[Speeps]

Players have the right to express their opinion just as anyone else. If people disagree with them that's one thing, but for the cops to demand an apology is ridiculous.

 

[Thordaddy]

It's totally amazing how some could believe the findings of the Grand Jury while totally ignoring everything we knew to be a fact prior to their release of their "findings." I wish there had been more people involved in the symbolic gesture.

So you held a formal proceeding with sworn witnesses and ascertained these facts you speak of ? Or you chose to believe the news source you prefer ?
How do you know these things ,if you could direct me to these sources I'd like to see them.
Let me say this I don't think the police officer HAD to shoot the kid , but I am sure he thought he did in the course of doing his job and if there is anything I've learned in these 64 years ,unless you are put IN many situations you don't really know how you yourself would react.

 

[Thordaddy]

Perfectly put and totally true. There's something about anonymity that brings out the worst in some people. A simple solution would be to have real names with phone numbers and addresses for every poster. Until that happens, and it most likely never will, the trolling and scumbaggery will continue.

And that is why I don't tweet nor have a facebook page because eventually we ALL say something we wish we hadn't and when that moment comes for me ,I don't want to pay for the rest of my life for it in addition those trolls will still know who I am regardless of whether I've done nothing more than offended them and then like Darren Wilson I will be tried without any presumption of innocence .

 

[Prime Time]

And that is why I don't tweet nor have a facebook page because eventually we ALL say something we wish we hadn't and when that moment comes for me ,I don't want to pay for the rest of my life for it in addition those trolls will still know who I am regardless of whether I've done nothing more than offended them and then like Darren Wilson I will be tried without any presumption of innocence .

I just wanted to post the word 'scumbaggery.' Carry on.

 

[Boffo97]

Players have the right to express their opinion just as anyone else. If people disagree with them that's one thing, but for the cops to demand an apology is ridiculous.

The players have the right to express their opinion.
The cops also have the right to express their opinion, and that includes the opinion that they were insulted and wanted an apology.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I'm disappointed in the AFROS for making this gesture before the game.

What does AFROS mean? Is it some new acronym I don't know?

 

[Speeps]

The players have the right to express their opinion.
The cops also have the right to express their opinion, and that includes the opinion that they were insulted and wanted an apology.

Don't try twisting what I'm saying. The gist of it is quite simple, for the cops to demand an apology or punishment for someone expressing their opinion is stupid.

 

[Boffo97]

What does AFROS mean? Is it some new acronym I don't know?

"America's Finest Receivers On Sundays", it was a self-proclaimed descriptor of the receiver corps they came up with during training camp.

Don't try twisting what I'm saying. The gist of it is quite simple, for the cops to demand an apology or punishment for someone expressing their opinion is stupid.

I'm not twisting anything. I'm just pointing out it cuts both ways. Anyone who feels really offended by someone else has the right to demand an apology.

Now if there was some kind of threat if there wasn't an apology, that'd be another matter.

 

[Speeps]

"America's Finest Receivers On Sundays", it was a self-proclaimed descriptor of the receiver corps they came up with during training camp.


I'm not twisting anything. I'm just pointing out it cuts both ways. Anyone who feels really offended by someone else has the right to demand an apology.

Now if there was some kind of threat if there wasn't an apology, that'd be another matter.

I completely agree. But I question, where the line ends. Are the cops going to demand an apology/punishment for everyone who hold their hands up in support of the protesters? Or is it just sport athletes? Are they demanding an apology/punishment for the people they see on the streets doing the same thing? Are they demanding punishment/apology from journalists who are writing against their tactics?

I'll give you an example, if you and I were to work in the same area, and I were supporting McCain in an election and you Obama, would it be reasonable for me to go to your employer and ask for your termination because I feel offended by your view? C'mon this needs to stop. I think it's going to far. In fact, it is the STL police force that are making this minor display of public support an issue. If you don't agree I'm fine with it, but during such a sensitive and fragile time period, I question the decision of them making this such a public (and what has now become a national) problem. And in my view it comes off as a little bit petty.

The NFL, and the STL Rams are handling this appropriately. They did what they did. Whether we agree with it or not, we're moving on. The STL police need to do the same. There are bigger problems that need attending to than who is holding their hands up and who isn't.

 

[Speeps]

"America's Finest Receivers On Sundays", it was a self-proclaimed descriptor of the receiver corps they came up with during training camp.


I'm not twisting anything. I'm just pointing out it cuts both ways. Anyone who feels really offended by someone else has the right to demand an apology.

Now if there was some kind of threat if there wasn't an apology, that'd be another matter.

I completely agree. But I question, where the line ends. Are the cops going to demand an apology/punishment for everyone who hold their hands up in support of the protesters? Or is it just sport athletes? Are they demanding an apology/punishment for the people they see on the streets doing the same thing? Are they demanding punishment/apology from journalists who are writing against their tactics?

I'll give you an example, if you and I were to work in the same area, and I were supporting McCain in an election and you Obama, would it be reasonable for me to go to your employer and ask for your termination because I feel offended by your view? C'mon this needs to stop. I think it's going to far. In fact, it is the STL police force that are making this minor display of public support an issue. If you don't agree I'm fine with it, but during such a sensitive and fragile time period, I question the decision of them making this such a public (and what has now become a national) issue. And in my view it comes off as a little bit petty.

The NFL, and the STL Rams are handling this appropriately. They did what they did. Whether we agree with it or not, we're moving on. The STL police need to do the same. There are bigger problems that need attending to than who is holding their hands up and who isn't.

 

[Boffo97]

I completely agree. But I question, where the line ends. Are the cops going to demand an apology/punishment for everyone who hold their hands up in support of the protesters? Or is it just sport athletes? Are they demanding an apology/punishment for the people they see on the streets doing the same thing? Are they demanding punishment/apology from journalists who are writing against their tactics?

I'll give you an example, if you and I were to work in the same area, and I were supporting McCain in an election and you Obama, would it be reasonable for me to go to your employer and ask for your termination because I feel offended by your view? C'mon this needs to stop. I think it's going to far. In fact, it is the STL police force that are making this minor display of public support an issue. If you don't agree I'm fine with it, but during such a sensitive and fragile time period, I question the decision of them making this such a public (and what has now become a national) problem. And in my view it comes off as a little bit petty.

The NFL, and the STL Rams are handling this appropriately. They did what they did. Whether we agree with it or not, we're moving on. The STL police need to do the same. There are bigger problems that need attending to than who is holding their hands up and who isn't.

I don't think the police would demand an apology from you or I. I agree that'd be stupid. But by doing what they did in uniform during a game, they were representing the Rams. I can imagine anyone who's given support to the Rams in any form, whether through being a fan or just paying taxes and now to feel spit in the face by the organization, I can imagine they feel a little sick right now.

There's an officer who was defending himself and acting appropriately whose life is now ruined by this. And members of the Rams just said through their display that he deserved it because he was a murderer.

I'd demand an apology too.

Now, some might say that's reading into it a little bit, but I don't think I'm taking huge leaps here.

 

[bluecoconuts]

"America's Finest Receivers On Sundays", it was a self-proclaimed descriptor of the receiver corps they came up with during training camp.


I'm not twisting anything. I'm just pointing out it cuts both ways. Anyone who feels really offended by someone else has the right to demand an apology.

Now if there was some kind of threat if there wasn't an apology, that'd be another matter.

Ah, thanks I totally missed that.

 

[Speeps]

I don't think the police would demand an apology from you or I. I agree that'd be stupid. But by doing what they did in uniform during a game, they were representing the Rams. I can imagine anyone who's given support to the Rams in any form, whether through being a fan or just paying taxes and now to feel spit in the face by the organization, I can imagine they feel a little sick right now.

There's an officer who was defending himself and acting appropriately whose life is now ruined by this. And members of the Rams just said through their display that he deserved it because he was a murderer.

I'd demand an apology too.

Now, some might say that's reading into it a little bit, but I don't think I'm taking huge leaps here.

I'll say this, I know we'll continue to disagree here. It's just such a sensitive issue, and I am saddened that these 5 Rams players are being vilified for expressing their opinion. I am also happy that Kevin Demoff made a point to emphasize that the Rams didn't apologize to the STL police for the actions of their players. There are no apologies that need to be given to anyone.

Also to your point, which I think is incredibly valid, perhaps Fisher need to have a conversation to let the players understand that at all times, when wearing that uniform they are representing the Rams.